Garuda & instructions...

[Montague S]

Carsten posted in jetspotter that another incident with our Indonesian friends has now been exposed. Its not the PM's job to administer punishment or investigate this incident..but something needs to be done at Garuda.

Garuda almosts land on airport workers. Will Rudd demand answers?

Ben Sandilands writes:

An alarming incident at Perth Airport involving a Garuda Indonesia
737, more than 100 predominantly Australian passengers and a
construction crew working on a closed section of a runway last Friday
has come to light.
The flight from Denpasar was about to land when the pilots queried
why they could see vehicles and machinery at the end of the runway
and began a go-around.
Perth tower is understood to have been doubly surprised.
Not only had Garuda and all other airlines using the airport been
issued with a special notification of the work, which instructed them
to use a displaced threshold, meaning land further down the runway
than normal, but a copy of these instructions had been transmitted to
the flight as it approached Perth.

Make that a triple surprise. The Garuda flight then lined for another
landing on the runway and appeared at imminent risk of touching down
right on top of the work site.

The tower ordered the Indonesians to abort the landing approach and
go around again, but they kept coming, levelling off at the last
moment to skim over the obstacles and then land safely on the
remainder of the runway.

A major investigation has been launched by the Australian Transport
Safety Bureau. It is certain to ask whether or not the original
notification to all pilots was clearly written (which Crikey
understands that it was), whether Garuda’s operations division
actually read and acted upon the notification, whether its pilots
paid any attention to the electronic copy of the notification sent to
their flight, and whether they understood the urgent advice from the
tower to discontinue their landing approach and what factors might
have made them ignore its directive.

This is a serious matter. While the ATSB only deals with the
technical aspects of incidents with a view to furthering aviation
safety, there is a political dimension which PM Rudd, as leader of
the opposition, grasped in the aftermath of the 7 March, 2007
atrocity in which another Garuda 737 crash landed at Yogyakarta
Airport which killed two AFP security officers, two Australian
government employees, one journalist, 17 other passengers and left
dozens injured or crippled among the 118 survivors.

That Garuda jet was still a smoking ruin when Rudd called for
criminal sanctions against the pilots involved, who tried to land it
on a short runway at twice the normal speed.

Subject to the findings of the investigation, what will the PM do
about the antics of Garuda (which is responsible for the competency
of its pilots) at an Australian airport?

Or does being in government make it all too hard to demand answers
and actions?

[Nigel C]

What was the source for this Monty?

Does anyone know if there's a link available yet fo the ATSB report?

[Montague S]

http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2008/AAIR/aair200802821.aspx

[Nigel C]

Cheers

[Rhys Xanthis]

Saw this on the news...

I will NEVER fly Garuda or any other Indo airline. Regardless of who's fault this incident was, they have poor safety standards (lol they claimed they had "world class" safety standards...dont think so!).

What about you guys? We should take a leaf out of the EU's book ...

the description of this on ATSB concerns me..

The threshold of runway 21 was displaced as per NOTAM and the information was broadcast on the ATIS but during short final, the crew of the Boeing 737-800 queried the presence of vehicles on the runway and commenced a missed approach after receiving the information from ATC. During the second approach the aircraft appeared to aim short and was instructed to go around but the aircraft levelled and landed past the displaced threshold.

[Matt_L]

I think we need a blanket ban on Garuda,
Dont let them fly to Australia until they fix up their aviation system (of which both will never happen) as the EU ban has been in force for quite some time. These people never learn and what they do wrong they compensate with a corrupt legal system and justice system ie why the adam air crashes and alot of garuda crashes have been kept quiet to the extent that criminal proceedings are hard to come by etc
Its downright deplorable and needs to stop.
When I was driving past Sydney Intl last thursday morning during fog, guess which International plane landed. Why it was Garuda! from DPS.
On this note,
does anyone know why Garuda was pretty much the only one to land in the fog, intl arrivals anyways last thursday.
Regards,
Matt

[Andrew P]

I think we need a blanket ban on Garuda,
Dont let them fly to Australia until they fix up their aviation system (which will never happen)
Matt

won't happen

and the 1st thing Indonesia will do is ban Australian planes from Indonesian airspace in return

what a mess that would cause

Banjo

[Andrew P]

.
When I was driving past Sydney Intl last thursday morning during fog, guess which International plane landed. Why it was Garuda! from DPS.
On this note,
does anyone know why Garuda was pretty much the only one to land in the fog, intl arrivals anyways last thursday.
Regards,
Matt

and who followed right in behind it EK, so that makes EK a bad airline too and should be banned from Aussie?

Banjo

[Rhys Xanthis]

won't happen

and the 1st thing Indonesia will do is ban Australian planes from Indonesian airspace in return



They wont do that, tourists bring in too much money.

It will harm relations though...im of the opinion that the Indonesians need to be kept in check very closely..

[Nigel C]

When I was driving past Sydney Intl last thursday morning during fog, guess which International plane landed. Why it was Garuda! from DPS.
On this note,
does anyone know why Garuda was pretty much the only one to land in the fog, intl arrivals anyways last thursday.
Regards,
Matt

I've seen first hand many times the difference just a couple of seconds can make during foggy mornings at the airport.

The banks of fog can really thicken up and then ease in a matter of seconds, and if the pilot reaches decision height and things look good at just the right moment then they'll continue. If they cop a dose of the bad stuff, then it's a different story.

However I'm only seeing what's happening on the ground next to the runway and not from the pilots seat. What you're seeing further away from the runways would be entirely different again.

[Grant Smith]

and who followed right in behind it EK, so that makes EK a bad airline too and should be banned from Aussie?

Banjo

You're asking Matt to comment on EK? Hahaha, he's already gone on record stating his dislike for the UAE and in particular DXB.. http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/14/14_6_1.gif

[Matt_L]

take what I wrote with a grain of salt:D
It just so happened it was Garuda, all you serious people!
as for EK, yep Grant no comment! but one thing, at least we can say they are a truly safe airline unlike Garuda.
Matt

[Montague S]

They wont do that, tourists bring in too much money.

It will harm relations though...im of the opinion that the Indonesians need to be kept in check very closely..

tourists don't just visit Indonesia from Australia..

[Clarke P]

tourists don't just visit Indonesia from Australia..

No, but a fairly large stake of Indonesia's tourism profits would be due to Australian visitors, thus making Australia a key market for Indonesia in terms of tourism.

[Rhys Xanthis]

No, but a fairly large stake of Indonesia's tourism profits would be due to Australian visitors, thus making Australia a key market for Indonesia in terms of tourism.

We all saw how much Bali suffered after the bombings.

Obviously other countries people didnt go, but a huge amount of Australians go there as a holiday destination (Europeans and Japanese are a big market too i think, but out close proximity makes us important).

A serious question, would anyone from this board fly Garuda without any concern?

[Gerry S]

Any of you guys got the NOTAM for YPPH that was in force on 9MAY? I got one for 10 and 17...

There appears to be 3 problems with this serious incident...
1. GA's ability to receive and disseminate foreign notams in a timely manner. Comments from a friend who crewed GA726 a few days afterwards said he didn't get to see the notam... And last year's GA incident trying to get into a missile testing area is another cause for concern regarding GA and notams.

2. The 2nd landing... Were they given a standard landing clearance or did the landing clearance contain information on the displaced threshold.

3. GA's SOP regarding to visual segment of an instrument approach where the visual slope guidance is out of sync with ILS GP, due to tempo displaced threshold... and whether or not it's the pilot's fault for not following his compay SOP or the airline's fault for not covering that in training.

As to our own aviation safety scene up here, well, your government is paying for our inspectors to be trained in Oz...

At least we got rid of Adam Air... disgrace and an insult to aviation as a whole...

GS

*PS: It's good to be back here again after another long absence*

[D Chan]

I still perceive Garuda to be safer than any of the other indonesian airlines. It's their aviation safety regulatory body that is letting them down.

Just curious also, regarding the possible threat of retaliation in 'banning' Garuda from Australia - when they were banned from Europe did they ban European Airlines from Indonesia?

[Rhys Xanthis]

Not to my knowledge.

Wikipedia says Lufthansa and KLM fly to Jakarta.

[Ken K]

Gerry, one didn't even need to look at the NOTAMs to know about the displaced threshold. It was in the ATIS too...

Regarding visual aids, I believe a temporary PAPI was set up with the displaced threshold marked with V markers.

[Adam G]

I still perceive Garuda to be safer than any of the other indonesian airlines. It's their aviation safety regulatory body that is letting them down.

That's not true.

Regulators set regulations which airlines must follow - I think you'll find that most operators internal processes by far exceed the regulators requirements in a number of areas.

Airlines themselves set the standard in relation to how they operate - even if we believed that the Indonesian regulator was to blame, Garuda could easily set a higher benchmark based on other regulators, widely available regulations (such as CASA or FAA).

Just because you are the safest airline, of a bunch of airlines that are deemed horribly unsafe by world standards doesn't make it right.

11 hull losses....

[Gerry S]

D Chan,
That perception was the predominant one until GA200... then everyone started to question "what the heck did Garuda miss?" And apparently, quite a bit according to the accident report. The scary bit is, GA exceeds the regulatory requirements in a few areas BUT, that being unchecked by the regulators who should be playing catch up, leaves some critical areas where they should have not let themselves down in... eg: making sure everyone gets adequate training on hearing GPWS warnings (it sounds simple enough, but, apparently they didn't apply that uniformly).

Discussions on banning whatever country criticised our aviation was rampant last year, and luckily, those voices quickly died out. Australia's access to Indonesian airspace, and vice versa, is "secure" for the moment, as CASA and ATSB has formed unprecendented closer ties with the DGAC and NTSC, mainly through training programs provided by Australia for Indonesian regulators. Japan is also doing this. Australia and Japan are the only two countries providing direct assistance in increasing the regulatory personnel standards.

The other countries, just say they do...

KLM and Lufthansa still flies to Jakarta unhindered. However, calls to banning European airlines from our airspace was reduced to more checks on LH and KL aircraft on the ground in Indonesia... after a few weeks, voices calling for a retaliatory ban were severely muted.

KenK,
From the information I gathered, I'm fairly sure it's in the ATIS too, but the NOTAM in force that day regarding the displaced threshold and it's creation/publication/dissemination time and date is also important. This is because I am curious on how fast GA receives and disseminate foreign NOTAMs. Not receiving the NOTAM can (albeit, with the 738 it won't) affect the dispatch legality of the aircraft. While the flight itself didn't violate any landing performance requirements due to the reduced LDA, not having those NOTAMs would reveal a risk that needs to be addressed for mitigation in the future.

As to the PAPI, yes, the NOTAM I got issued on 10MAY state to use the tempo PAPI as the perm PAPI was unavailable.

On an interesting note, a friend about to operate GA726 between 11 - 17 May, said Ops only got the 10May NOTAM on the 16th. This is why I am curious as to the NOTAM in force on 9May.


AdamG,
GA did try and set a higher standard that what was required, but it appears that they never made sure that updates and new requirements were included in updating their own standards. Coincidentally, our safety regulations are identical to the FAA. Our CASR follows the FAR. But, the guidelines and recommendations put forward by the FAA from time to time don't make it into our CASR or it's supplementary regulations. If one is not careful, one could end up between CASR and FAR but never sure where it actually is.

---
Garuda itself is in the process of getting IOSA accreditation. We'll see how they succeed or fail. Garuda and the rest of the country need that IOSA for Garuda for many reasons. One is to proof that attaining that is possible for an Indonesian airline, and second, if the perceived best can't get it, how about the rest? *you know what people's answer would be*.
---
There are other heaps of factors on concern regarding Garuda. While we see Garuda as best overall for an Indonesian airline, other airlines have surpassed Garuda's standards in certain aspects, although the overall standard of those particular airlines may be lower than Garuda. One area of concern, is crew training and CRM culture. One incident raised a few eyebrows... that is Sriwijaya's 733 overrun in PGK a month ago. The PIC was a recent intake for the airline, from Garuda, and the 733 crew pool is mainly new intakes, ex GA and Merpati, and that the Ops might not be able to control these guys into following the airline's operating standards... because the general perception is, Garuda's standards are better... where the reality, may proof otherwise, at least in some areas.

Gerry

[Montague S]

bloody hell..Garuda again, this time they were 30km off course on a flight to Perth yesterday. How long before they are banned from our skies? or do more Australian's have to die before action is taken?

[Rhys Xanthis]

bloody hell..Garuda again, this time they were 30km off course on a flight to Perth yesterday. How long before they are banned from our skies? or do more Australian's have to die before action is taken?

hopefully they ban them tomorrow.

ive heard (however true or not) that they lined up on horrie miller dve once..!!:eek:


Modified due inappropriate slandering - mod

[Ellis Taylor]

You're right Rhys, they did once but I believe it was back in around '88.

Another incident certainly doesn't bode well for GA, but in many ways it should improve over the next few years. CASA and the ATSB are working with the Indonesian authorities to increase their standards of surveillance on all airlines, and the transparency of the NTSC report into GA200 is unprecedented in Indonesia. So while some changes still need to be made at GA, the systems are coming in place for Garuda as a whole.

[Scott Lindsell]

*PS: It's good to be back here again after another long absence*


Welcome back Gerry!!!
:)

[Gerry S]

And guess what, Garuda got their IOSA certification this week!

Things are looking up, BUT, somethings still need ironing.
Heard another GA problem with PER airport on wednesday... sad.
Anyone heard anything?

and the transparency of the NTSC report into GA200 is unprecedented in Indonesia.
The NTSC had no choice despite the pressure to keep it covered up by "the usual suspects". It was funny how quickly those "usual suspects" became quiet after an independent report revealed the same facts at the same time the NTSC released the factuals.
---
Scott,
Well, back... through the net. Still miss hanging around YSSY like so many years ago.

Gerry

[Johannes C]

Dickson, that is why European ban lift next July, will be on certain carriers, including Garuda, but not over the regulatory oversight bodies.

IMHO, Garuda itself is not that good or bad either. Singapore Airlines could be somehow worser than their neighbours. It is just they have better image and incidents cover ups, while Garuda is a super soft spot for Aussie media.