Airbus A380 Woes Continue
 

More here.

Pretty melodramatic thread title, for what is at the end of the day old news, regurgitated by a blog written by a one Saj Ahmad. Oh that's you isn't it? So in effect your are quoting your own website blog.

Ash, it may be trivial to some, but I think you left out a few things. Here, let me give you a hand...

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Too true Nigel.

By the way Saj, the meaning of the word Woe is:

n. archaic or literary 1 affliction; bitter grief; distress.
2 (in pl.) calamities, troubles.
3 joc. problems (told me a tale of woe).

Now if you were talking about the A380 program in it's development then yeah the title could well be applicable. But slow sales are far from a woe. Does Airbus seem all that concerned at present?

If we were talking about the continuing problems at Beoing with the 7late7 and 747-8 programs then yeah they would be woe's. Where are your reports of woe about these programs?

One is clearly going to make more money than the other:

http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...-update1-.html

And contrary to your assumption about Airbus' concern about the A380, I would kindly refer you back to Tom Enders comments earlier this year and remarks from 2009 where he described it as a financial liability.

BUt I digress ;)

The 'other' will make money for sure, of course only once it actually starts to make it to the customers respective fleets which is still some time off and like the A380 is several years behind schedule and over budget.

No one is arguing the A380 program in terms of sales has been well below expectations, but to say that the A380's woes continues and to have a blog entitled "Shoot the dog part five" is overly melodramtic and far from reality.

Over the past two years the A380 has proved itself in service and there clearly is a market for it but, yes sales are slow and it will take years to cover the costs of development and make a profit. All known facts and nothing new at all.

Gotta admit, there's a LOT of negativity about the A380 program out there. Following many twitter accounts for Aviation info, seems like all of them have their regular spats about the A380 and never anything good to say - and they like to repeat themselves about it a lot.

Ah well. It's nothing new, it's not even interesting anymore. Even if there's truth behind it, it's been done so much it just feels like these particular writers just hate the project and want nothing but to see it burnt to the ground - or shot.

My take is different, as an aviation enthusiast I love to see them around our airports and I only hope that things improve for the program in the future to maybe get some positive news out there from time to time.

Dan

Nothing new at all... Boeing vs Airbus, Ford vs Holden... same old same old. At the end of the day, the A380 is operating and popular with pax, so the Boeing camp are going to be venting like Eyjafjallajökul... they've got nothing else until there's product on the ground... or in the air and in service more accurately.

Here is an illustration of what this process looks like. As you can see, both sides will continue without restraint and achieve nothing. :)

Anyone that pretends the A380 isn't in a bad situation is burying their head in the sand IMO.

The article certainly is biased against the A380 and Saj is pretty pro-Boeing but the list of troubles for the 380 is long.

Most carriers having ordered the 380 have deferred it. I think the count is something like 13 out of 17.
The plane has garnered only 202 sales in 10 years, including the biggest sales boom in commercial avaition.
It has cost almost twice as much to develop as originally estimated, with figures ranging in the US$25-30m.
Production is still a joke. They won't manage 20 planes this year and the article mentions KE's 1st plane due this year has already been deferred until 2011. It's just too labor intensive. MH just had their 1st 380 deferred for 6 months, due to production issues. Why have these taken so long to sort out.
It does nothing other WB twins can't do, except carry more people. When the 747 era started, it had a huge capacity and range advantage over the 707/DC-8/VC-10.
It's been so long in development, that technology has passed it by. The 787/350 are far more advanced in materials, efficiency, engines......... It probably already needs more advanced and efficient engines and it certainly can't match the composite fuselage of the 787, nor the flying experience, with the 787 supposedly offering cabin pressurisation to 6000', higher humidity levels and a true anti turbulence dampening system, as well as those huge windows.
What's worst for the 380 IMO, is it's lack of flexibility. What happens in a world downturn? What routes do you switch your A380s to?
This all of course relates to the business case for the 380. Without exception, all that I know that have flown on the 380 have been exceptional in their praise for it. Maybe that can be it's saving grace, but I doubt it.

The A380 is a lovely plane to travel in, and yes of course people are choosing it over the B747 and to a much lesser extent the B777.

Once the B787 starts to enter service with nice new interiors, lots of "cool features" it will become the plane to fly on.

I doubt the A380 will ever be a huge success, most of the airlines that need it, have already ordered it.

The B787/A350 will be winners for both Boeing and Airbus.

The A380 is a very comfortable a/c to travel in - certainly quieter and smoother than the 747s. But whenever I have travelled there has been some little glitch with brakes or IFE that takes the gloss off a little and suggests some ongoing design or build issues. I wouldn't put it higher than that, but I would expect that by now these issues had been sorted and the fact that they are ongoing has irritation value I'm sure for the operators as much for the pax.

The discussion was about whether the A380 issues have been overstated. I was giving my personal perspective. You have given yours. Readers and FFs can form their own views.

While it may have a better dispatch rate, the number of A380's that need to be sold to be profitable continues to increase.

I don't think the A380 will ever make a true profit for Airbus!

There are only a small handful of airlines that MAY order the A380 and even then, doubtful it will be another 150-250 that they need to make a profit.

Too much too late.

So check this.... we are lucky enough to get an internationally recognised aviation analyst contributing to this site and this is how it's treated over at a.net

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...802492/#menu27

No wonder they say overseas we're insular (and on this site IMHO) elitist. C'mon, give it a break will ya.

As with any forum there are those with "vested interests" so of course people will be there to defend Airbus and Boeing much more than just being a Forum fanboy.

Saj A - Thanks for posting on here

No tears from me if they ever stopped production... lol.

Guys

Apart from the odd one or two :rolleyes:, most passengers agree that the A380 has introduced new standards of passenger comfort to airline travel - I've travelled on QF, SQ and EK and would pick an A380 ahead of any other airliner currently flying if given the choice, except perhaps a 77W/L.

That said, Airbus hasn't done itself any favours with the aircraft's industralisation issues, slow production ramp up, and range of options offered to launch customers, and I believe the jury is probably still out on whether Airbus will ever sell the ~500 required to turn a profit on the program.

I also doubt the launch airlines have configured the A380 in the best and most efficent way, hence QF's decision to re-configure its last eight jets, and may not be using it to its potential either. I guess later configurations and routing will tell. The IFE problems that people complain about are airline furnished equipment, and generally not related to the aircraft itself.

I couldnt agree more with everything you have said Andrew.

IFE problems not notwithstanding? :) Friends and relatives who've flown on the A380 all comment to me how quiet and smooth it was, especially the landings. I remember my dad used to tell me the same thing about the 747's when I was a young fella.

Airbus are measuring themselves against an aircraft brought to market 20+ years ago? One would think advancements in technology (despite associated increases in complexity) would render improvements in despatch reliability. Surely?

http://www.fleetbuzzeditorial.com/2010/05/17/

More on the "3Fatty" from FBE

Last couple of paragraphs are interesting

Yet another article by Saj so I will take it with a grain of biased salt!

Take it with whatever you wish. Doesn't change the fact the A380 is a financial disaster, just as my colleage Aboulafia asserts.

But then, its always easier to shoot the messenger rather than debate the message.

And Saj, did you seek anyone else out to give their opinion of the A380's finanical prospects to perhaps balance your own (obvious) opinions, or did you just go to Aboulafia knowing he would back your own assertions up?

You're not propogating the debate by only using the opinions and comments of people that you know will support your own! :rolleyes:

Its pointless debating the message when no amount of debating will get through to you!

Who should I have asked when Airbus themselves (from Enders downwards) note that its a financial drain?

Classic example of failing to address the A380s miserable financial situation and instead turn the focus elsewhere. And if you were even half connected to the debacle to the A380 as I am, you'd know that's its not just Ricahrd and I who are critical of its non-existent business case. I'll leave that to you to find out sir.

:)

So, "Is the A380 a financial drain?" the best question you've got to ask? :eek: Hmmm... :rolleyes: A drain at the moment doesn't necessarily translate to a...I'm not going to get into a ****ing contest with you about who's connected to whom. Most of the people on this forum know me and my credentials - I'll let them judge.

Nah, bugger it - just last week I spoke with Tom Enders, Tom Williams, John Leahy and Richard Carcaillet about just this subject and others, as well as getting opinions from several notable commentators who have no allegience to Airbus or Boeing.

I (and they) agree it's a financial drain, but with 10-15 years of production ahead of it, it's way too early to be calling the A380 a financial disaster!

So a program that has more than doubled in cost to over $25bn and still growing due to cost overruns and design changes, coupled with the inability to price the airplane profitably is not a financial disaster?

:)

And if its about credentials/connections - I never boasted about mine or impugned yours, stick to the topic instead.

And in 15 years time, the A380 will be a 25 year old dinosaur with about as much sales/profit success as the ageing 767. Over half the A380 customers and backlog continue to be deferred, adding yet more production, planning, staff and supplier costs. But of course, they don't matter from a financial perspective, do they?

But I digress...

Hmmm...:rolleyes:

But I digress...

Saj, here is an article suggestion. How about a write up of the 747-8, which using your logic is, even before first delivery a 41 year old dinosaur which is struggling for sales and costing Boeing a lot of money.

Read it again - I said debacle. I made no reference to peope at Airbus etc. Its completely plausible we have different lines of communications/sources but I did not claim you were not informed. Nice try plugging words in on my behalf though, I'll give you that.

Come back to me when the A380 makes Airbus some profit :D

So who else is actually going to buy the other 200-300 that is needed to break even ?

10-15 years of sales.... another 200-300 A380 sales.....

Highly doubtful.

Of more concern will be the price of oil at that time me thinks!

And they're hardly going to admit the 3fatty is a lemon now are they?

I'll qualify this by referring the plane as a financial lemon for Airbus, EADS, their European Government benefactors, et al as opposed to the craft itself