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  #51  
Old 29th June 2011, 12:56 PM
Ash W Ash W is offline
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Just had a look at the Emirates results over lunch and these too reflect Cathay Pacific in so far as fuel and labour costs go. With fuel at about 1/6 of total costs and labour 1/4. Refer to page 43.

http://www.theemiratesgroup.com/syst...tcm:409-652708
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  #52  
Old 29th June 2011, 03:05 PM
Mick F Mick F is offline
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Keep in mind Emirates would pay nowhere near the actual cost of fuel. Helps when you own the oil well's.

And we may have proven one thing, that Qantas spends a lot on staff (if those figures are correct). But what are you proposing Ash? That staff take a 25% pay cut or something like that?

It's never going to happen. The pilots already took a pay freeze with the promise of it being given back to them and it never did.

Let's not forget that apart from the usual CPI increase (which should be normal, I know with the EBA I'm bound under there's always a CPI increase in there), the pilots aren't asking for anything else remuneration wise.

Mick
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  #53  
Old 29th June 2011, 03:19 PM
Anthony T Anthony T is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick F View Post
Keep in mind Emirates would pay nowhere near the actual cost of fuel. Helps when you own the oil well's.
Mick
All airlines pay the same for fuel in Dubai.
And what are these oil wells you speak of?
Dubai doesn't have any oil, it has to import the stuff.
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  #54  
Old 29th June 2011, 03:44 PM
Peter Agatsiotis Peter Agatsiotis is offline
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That's what I thought Anthony but the media always goes on about the revenue from oil. Even so I'd say they get it mate's rates
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  #55  
Old 29th June 2011, 04:21 PM
Ash W Ash W is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick F View Post
...
And we may have proven one thing, that Qantas spends a lot on staff (if those figures are correct). But what are you proposing Ash? That staff take a 25% pay cut or something like that?

It's never going to happen. The pilots already took a pay freeze with the promise of it being given back to them and it never did.

Let's not forget that apart from the usual CPI increase (which should be normal, I know with the EBA I'm bound under there's always a CPI increase in there), the pilots aren't asking for anything else remuneration wise.

Mick
Actually what it proves is why Qantas is so uncompetative compared to other international carriers, in particular Emirates.

It doesn't actually show that Qantas employee's are overpaid (or underpaid for that matter), nor does it say said employee's should or shouldn't get payrises.

What it does show however is to be competative Qantas needs to bring this cost down because more or less every other cost is fixed. There are many ways to do this. For example, reducing staff numbers, be it through outsourcing certain functions to organisations that can do it cheaper, reducing staff numbers through new technology (New gen check-in for example), reducing staff numbers through workplace reform or setting up airlines offshore to do some or all of the work.

Now if I am not mistaken everything I said above is what Qantas management are trying to do and is the crux of the industrial strife they face with their workforce.
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  #56  
Old 29th June 2011, 04:35 PM
Mick F Mick F is offline
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I think more the problem that staff are in dispute about, is an Australian airline sending their jobs overseas, rather than keeping them here in Australia. And by doing so, the alterior motive is to eventually force these employee's onto lower pay.

I don't exactly call that engaging with your staff.

Since when did Qantas become the "Spirit of New Zealand" or "The Spirit of Asia"?

Maybe Alan Joyce should take a leaf out of Clive Palmer's book of management. Pay your staff what they're worth, treat them well and listen to what they have to say and you will get a well running company with high productivity.

Calling your staff "rogue" and "out of touch" isn't good for business, especially when they're more concerned about the airline's long term future than a short term CEO is. Let's not forget that Qantas pilots have not been on strike since 1966. You'd think that if they're threatening to do it now, it really must be the last straw.

Mick
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  #57  
Old 29th June 2011, 04:49 PM
Mick F Mick F is offline
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Ohh, by the way.

Has anyone thought about the fact that Emirates don't pay taxes?
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  #58  
Old 29th June 2011, 05:39 PM
Anthony T Anthony T is offline
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No airline operating to the UAE pays taxes, Emirates pays the same rate of tax in its foreign ports as do all other airlines.

If QANTAS operated to the UAE they wouldn't pay taxes there either, but QF choose not to fly to the UAE, but still complain about UAE carriers as well as some others.
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  #59  
Old 29th June 2011, 05:45 PM
Ash W Ash W is offline
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Anthony think you will find the comment was directed at company and income taxes, not operating taxes which is what you seem to be talking about. Weather Qantas flies there or not has nothing what so ever to do with trying to level the playing field.

Now if Qantas were to operate to the UAE they and their staff would still very much pay Australian corporate and income taxes. If however they were to set-up base in the UAE then they wouldn't.

In fact this example actually highlights the difficulty faced by Qantas and other airlines in trying to compete with airlines from the gulf and shows the inequity which different airlines need to deal with and why Qantas needs to look at setting up offshore operations and bases. A similar issue applies when competing with airlines from lower labour cost countries etc. Qantas of course has lost the argument of protection so to compete now needs to look at other area's, such as staff costs and of course setting up a base in a country with lower costs such as the UAE or maybe even Malaysia!

Last edited by Ash W; 29th June 2011 at 06:33 PM. Reason: Clarrified comment
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  #60  
Old 29th June 2011, 05:50 PM
Ash W Ash W is offline
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Originally Posted by Mick F View Post
I think more the problem that staff are in dispute about, is an Australian airline sending their jobs overseas, rather than keeping them here in Australia.
What option do they have? On an international market Australian staff cost WAY too much, in no small part due to our higher cost of living. There is no way that an airline like Qantas can survive on international routes paying Australian wages and as many have pointed out staff here shouldn't, won't or cannot take a pay cut. So the options left to Qantas are to seek ways of reducing costs by sending work o/s, reforming work practices, setting up an international base or maybe even shut down the international operation altogether.

In any case one thing is clear, Qantas cannot in any way shape or form compete in an international market when labour costs make up so much of their costs. If Qantas were to charge the appropriate fare to cover these costs most people these days will fly the lower cost opposition. So basically they are in a no win situation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick F View Post
And by doing so, the alterior motive is to eventually force these employee's onto lower pay.
I think the motivation is to reduce the labour costs of the company so that they can be competitive. This can be done without forcing employee's onto lower pay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick F View Post
I don't exactly call that engaging with your staff.
Disagree actually. The management is telling the workforce the bleeding obvious. To me it seems as if the workforce is in denial about the issues and what must be done to reform and get back into a competitive position. As I have been saying if they can reform the company should prosper thus providing further opportunities for Australians. If they do nothing the company will be left with little option but to cut further thus putting more people out of work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick F View Post
Since when did Qantas become the "Spirit of New Zealand" or "The Spirit of Asia"?
Maybe when the world changed from a protected international market to an open skies type market. Look around the world and you will see similar issues and pressures placed on more or less every legacy carrier based in high cost locations. The exception is the US, who still very much live in a highly protected market.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick F View Post
Ohh, by the way.

Has anyone thought about the fact that Emirates don't pay taxes?
That is one of the reasons why the cost of employee's to Emirates is so low compared to Qantas. Qantas clearly cannot do the same, so must find other ways to reduce this cost to them.

I guess Qantas's issue is if they cannot beat them (which they cannot based on cost) then they need to join them. As unpalatable this is to Australia and the staff at Qantas it is the reality if the company is to survive internationally. Though as I have said if international operations prosper it should lead to further job opportunities within Australia where relative labour costs are not so important.

Last edited by Ash W; 29th June 2011 at 06:03 PM.
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