"Cancel Speed Restrictions"

[Andrew P]

If an airline exceeds the approved speed set by ATC, what happens?

A rap over the knuckles by Air Traffic Control, a speeding fine, or what?

[Matt_L]

Cant comment on with speed but assume it would be similar to what I write below.

In 2006 I was on work experience at Air Services Australia in the ATC room at Sydney and the Austrian 777 flight from Kuala Lumpur was on what is the ODALE3 STAR nowadays and it missed the height requirement for MITSA waypoint which was 7000 feet at 20 Sydney DME.

The approach controller i was sitting in with gave the pilot a verbal warning and no more action was taken, and I questioned her about this and the response was that a re-occurence or multiple occurences of this type of action ie overspeed, a lack of conforming to the height requirements or even a turn not on par with the STAR will result with a review of data (atc radar data can be reviewed for investigations) and possible meeting between AirServices and the pilots/Administrative staff of the airline.

This I understand however would be a rare case if it was to occur.

[NickN]

I doubt they'd drag you over the coals for a once off speed breach, like Matt said, if it is continual then it might be worth further attention.

[Hugh Jarse]

As others have written here, the cancellation of speed restrictions does not cancel altitude requirements on a SID or STAR, unless ATC specifically states so.

One peculiarity I've noticed is that when on arrival to places like SY, BN, ML we will often have speed cancelled from TOPD. However, unless ATC specifically state "cancel STAR speed restrictions", the 250kt below 10000' still apply. A small trap, but a trap nonetheless.

Matt L, it would be extremely unlikely for a jet to be given the ODALE 3 (or any of its previous iterations) as that is a propeller STAR. The difference in altitude requirements between the jet and prop STARs is in the order of 2000' (9000' for jets vs 7000' for props at 20 DME SY).

[NickN]

One peculiarity I've noticed is that when on arrival to places like SY, BN, ML we will often have speed cancelled from TOPD

Would that be to assist in keeping the flow of traffic moving swiftly?

[Matt D]

Originally Posted by NickN

The airspace around London especially looks like suicide!

In many UK airports the all SID height requirements are provided on the chart negating the requirement for clearance delivery to provide the initial altitude.

But a clearance by London Control to climb to an altitude above that specified in the chart removes the 'not above' height requirements on the chart

That said numerous Gatwick, Heathrow, Stansted, Luton and London City SID and STARs cross and many meet at certain waypoints. Vertical separation is key.

Northbound out of Gatwick yesterday we levelled off at 6 intermediate altitudes.

Brookmans Park Departure is a typical one for QF and shows the altitudes
http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/cu...GLL_6-3_en.pdf

And this one from London City that slides under many crossing paths and all radial/DME based rather than waypoint based
http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/cu...GLC_6-1_en.pdf

Matt

[Matt_L]

Originally Posted by Hugh Jarse

Matt L, it would be extremely unlikely for a jet to be given the ODALE 3 (or any of its previous iterations) as that is a propeller STAR. The difference in altitude requirements between the jet and prop STARs is in the order of 2000' (9000' for jets vs 7000' for props at 20 DME SY).

My apologies.

Mustve been Rivet or some other STAR- my exact memory of the star evades me but the general details there were on par

Matt

[Oliver A]

Thought I would just correct some misconceptions on this thread.

Originally Posted by Owen H

Airports in class C in AUS operate at 250 below 10,000ft, and this applies even when not on a SID/STAR (say under radar vector). In Aus it can be cancelled by ATC when required/requested traffic permitting. Some countries cannot cancel the requirement, and some others it only applies when on a SID/STAR... when under vectors then all bets are off.

Not all airports in class C in Aus operate at 250k below 10. See AIP ENR 1.1 para 80.1. The speed limit only applies at Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane and Gold Coast. At other class C airports such as Perth, Canberra, Adelaide etc., if the STAR doesn't have a speed restriction then there isn't one.

Originally Posted by Hugh Jarse

One peculiarity I've noticed is that when on arrival to places like SY, BN, ML we will often have speed cancelled from TOPD. However, unless ATC specifically state "cancel STAR speed restrictions", the 250kt below 10000' still apply. A small trap, but a trap nonetheless.

Not true, the phrase 'cancel speed restrictions' means 'cancel STAR speed requirements'. See AIP GEN 3.4 para 5.11.

[Hugh Jarse]

Sorry, Oliver - you might need to re-read your AIP. I Quote:

12.3.7 The STAR speed requirement of 250KT IAS maximum below
10,000FT must be complied with unless amended by ATC. A
speed restriction greater than 250KT issued above 10,000FT
does not vary this requirement. A speed less than 250KT IAS im-
posed above 10,000FT must be complied with throughout the
STAR procedure.

Therefore, unless we are specifically advised "cancel STAR speed restrictions (or similar)", the 250kt below 10000' still applies.

[Ken K]

Hugh,

Remember too that the paragraph 12.3.8 also states this, which is the the same as the AIP GEN 3.4 para 5.11 Oliver referred to above:

ATC may cancel STAR speed requirements either by individual instructions;
eg, “CANCEL SPEED RESTRICTIONS”, or by general
advice on the ATIS; eg, “STAR SPEED RESTRICTIONS DO NOT
APPLY”.

I believe the "speed restriction greater than 250KT issued above 10,000FT" in 12.3.7 doesn't actually refer to when the controller cancels speed while you're way above A100, but is more for when ATC tell you to fly a speed on descent (eg. max on cruise and descent) without actually cancelling speed.