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  #11  
Old 22nd March 2009, 01:56 PM
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Grahame Hutchison Grahame Hutchison is offline
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The aircraft was in one of the standoff bays when I arrived in Melbourne on Saturday morning, it is still in the same place today, tug attached, as I wait for my flight back to Sydney.

Guess they will have to work out were to put it for a much longer stay than normal.
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  #12  
Old 22nd March 2009, 05:16 PM
Karl M Karl M is offline
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Aircraft was parked down at G6 (freight ramp) from early Saturday Morning.

I think you saw the other EK flight at the stand off bay Grahame.

ERG this morning was parked inside one of the John Holland hangers this morning, nose facing out, with hanger doors 3/4 closed.

Now it is parked outside, down the southern end of the hangers, facing south.
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  #13  
Old 22nd March 2009, 06:01 PM
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Raymond Rowe Raymond Rowe is offline
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Was outside facing south this afternoon.It had a security guard sitting right underneath where the damage was.
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  #14  
Old 22nd March 2009, 07:38 PM
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Mike W Mike W is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris B. View Post
Mike,

When fuel dumping in flight is required, it must (where possible) conduct a controlled dump in clear air above 6000ft and in an area nominated by ATC.

This requirement means that from above 6000ft the fuel would have vapourised before hitting the ground/water.
Thanks Chris. I didn't realise that's what would happen and I had visions of an oil slick like the one in Queensland recently.

Cheers, I feel better now.
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  #15  
Old 23rd March 2009, 09:51 AM
Chris B. Chris B. is offline
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No worries, that's what it's all about!
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  #16  
Old 23rd March 2009, 11:01 AM
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Martin Buzzell Martin Buzzell is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Griffiths View Post
The question why the 'bus had not become an Airbus by the end of the runway.. interested on the real answer to that.

Cheers
This is what I want to know as well. I surprised the media hasn't picked up on how close this was to a major disaster. I know I shouldn't speculate, but the over rotation could be that they saw the end of the runway coming up and just rotated just to get airborne at the minimum unstick speed.

There's talk of an engine failure as well, just before the tail scrap. So I'm waiting for a few answers.
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  #17  
Old 23rd March 2009, 11:55 AM
Greg McDonald Greg McDonald is offline
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From another source: It hit the runway end lights and the localizer antenna past the end of runway 16 and several access panels were ripped off during the tailstrike, the landing reportedly caused additional damage to the gear.

In daylight Saturday morning it was established, that the airplane was still on the ground when it passed the runway end during takeoff, according gear tracks were found in the soft ground past the runway end.

Very close to a MAJOR disaster!!
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  #18  
Old 23rd March 2009, 12:01 PM
Mark Grima Mark Grima is offline
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Hasn't been a real good 2 or 3 days for aviantion has it? Am also very very surpriosed by the lack of media interest in this, I had no idea about it until logging on today. I'll refrain from saying anything else but I think were are all probably having similar thoughts about the interest this would of caused had this been another airline involved?

Anyway, what I am really interested about is the use of a "Maltese Cross" as mentioned on the PPrune forum. What is it and what is it used for?

Main reason for being interested is that I am Maltese and have a Maltese cross tattooed on my back :-) Have never come across it from a aviation point of veiw though!

Cheers

M
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  #19  
Old 23rd March 2009, 12:26 PM
NickN NickN is offline
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It seems there was no opportunity for a RTO at that late stage, the end of the runway would have been so close by the time the decision was required they have would have been foced to take-off regardless of what had failed or otherwise or they would have ended up as a smouldering wreck.
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  #20  
Old 23rd March 2009, 12:46 PM
Tony P Tony P is offline
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Mark,

The "Maltese Cross" is an indication on the flight instruments called a Sidestick order indicator.

This is an abstract from the Joburg incident they talk about on PPRUNE which explains it a little.

Quote:
Moreover, the captain had been acquainted with an unofficial procedure, mentioned as a "tip" in training, to help determine how much backward pressure on the sidestick controller was needed to rotate the aircraft. The input was two-thirds backstick. But what equates to two-thirds? He had been told during training that the "iron cross" symbol shown as part of the sidestick order indicator (SSOI) on the primary flight display (PFD) can be used for this purpose. The captain had been advised to move the stick so that the cross on the PFD would be at 9 degrees on the pitch scale. (A pitch up of 13.5 degrees will result in a tailstrike on a loaded A340-300, so 9 degrees would provide the attitude to take off with adequate margin against tailstrike.)

Here's the problem: the cross is meant to be used on the ground only for the flight controls check, and for the first officer to monitor the sidestick inputs of the pilot flying during the initial takeoff roll. The cross moves relative to four right-angle marks denoting maximum lateral and longitudinal sidestick deflection. As Airbus cautions, "The sidestick position symbol was not designed to be used during takeoff rotation."

In fact, the SSOI disappears from the display when the weight is removed from the main landing gear. However, this technique of employing the SSOI to determine the amount of backstick was suggested during training, and indeed it had worked in the simulator. However, as the CAA report notes, after performing takeoffs in the Emirates simulator, it "was not able to present an exact representation of the reaction of the aircraft during the takeoff conditions similar to the incident flights ... In each case, the simulator `aircraft' took off without incident."

The overrun is tied to another aspect of the SSOI. When the aircraft rotates, the horizon line (together with its pitch scale) moves down on the PFD. If a pilot moves the cross associated with the SSOI down with respect to the horizon, after rotation the aircraft will not remain pitched up to unstick and climb. This is because the SSOI is referenced to the fixed travel limit marks, not the artificial horizon. As the CAA report states, "Maintaining a 9-degree pitch using the SSOI referenced to the horizon on the PFD after rotation will produce an approximate aircraft pitch of 5 degrees."

And that's what happened in this incident. At rotation, the captain eased off on the backstick, and the first officer thought he was taking the action to avoid a tailstrike. The airplane rumbled off the end of the runway, smashed through a row of runway end/approach lights, and went about 650 feet before finally getting airborne when the captain reapplied backstick and also applied takeoff go-around (TOGA) power.
Hope that helps.

Last edited by Tony P; 23rd March 2009 at 12:59 PM.
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