Sydney Airport Message Board - Qantas - Emirates Announcement Next Week

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Justin they don't have the a/c to do add on flights. Wide bodies won't work with the passenger volumes Qantas could possibly carry into Singapore and even wide bodies would work Qantas really doesn't have aircraft spare to do it. Indeed I cannot see where they are going to get the a/c to change the SYD/MEL Singapore flights from A380/747 in addition to the continuation of 747 deliveries.

About all that comes to mind is giving SYD-BKK to EK which would free up one A330, but I reckon they would need more just to replace the A380 services to Singapore, let alone enhance them with frequencies.

This move is a strategically sound one and is a good fit for both parties with mutual benefits. I tend to think Emirates has a lot to gain from this partnership but it also buys Qantas some time to sort the international arm out i.e. return to profitability etc. More importantly AJ has yet again leveraged the successful loyalty business in achieving this outcome and getting the deal across the line, and no doubt the proposal was too lucrative for Emirates to turn down. Another key aspect is solving the European problem (Heathrow-centric) and untangling european operations from asian flights, which allows for opportunities to re-jig the QF network in South East Asia (and potentially even New Zealand as well).. I also think from a marketing perspective there could potentially be joint marketing opportunities (and savings) in Australia between EK and QF.

I think if John Borghetti got the CEO role at Qantas a few years ago, he would probably have proceeded with a partnership similar to VA's with Etihad. I think John deserves credit for this QF-EK outcome because of his 'game change' at VA, he has not only changed VA but indirectly QF as well.

In its submission to the ACCC, qantas has identified it will withdraw from Europe if the deal does not go ahead.

http://www.aviationbusiness.com.au/n...-emirates-deal

Qantas has outlined a gloomy future for its international operations if the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission (ACCC) rejects the codeshare deal with Emirates.

In a submission to the ACCC asking for the deal to be approved, Qantas says the tie-up with the Dubai-based carrier is essential to stop the slide in international market share.

"While Qantas International may historically have been regarded as ‘dominant’, this is not the reality. To the contrary, it is clear that it is no longer possible for Qantas International to sustainably ‘go it alone’ as an international network carrier," the submission states.

"For many years Qantas International has been supported by the other profitable Qantas businesses (Qantas Domestic, Qantas Frequent Flyer (QFF) and Jetstar) but its losses have continued to grow – culminating in a $450 million loss in fiscal year 2012 compared with a loss of $216 million in 2010-2011.

"The growing magnitude of losses cannot continue."

According to Qantas, there are two main reasons for the decline in the flying kangaroo as a dominant force in international travel.

1.Full service carriers based at mid-point hubs such as Singapore, Hong Kong, the Middle East or locations in China have an immediate and significant geographic advantage over an end-of-line carrier
2.Most mid-point carriers have strategic economic advantages associated with low or no tax, government funded infrastructure and access to developing economy labour costs resulting in sustainably and substantially lower operating costs.
Failures to negotiate deals with Asian mid-point carriers such as Singapore Airlines, Malaysian and Cathay have been cited as a major reason for Qantas' market share continuing to decline.

Approval or not, the ACCC submission makes it clear that Europe is not economically sustainable and that Frankfurt is on the chopping block.

"At this point, Qantas International only operates three daily services to Europe – two to London and one to Frankfurt (compared to five daily services six months ago). Qantas will discontinue its Frankfurt service irrespective of whether the Proposed Conduct [the codeshare deal] proceeds.

"In addition, absent the ability to coordinate with one of the mid-point carriers, Qantas International’s current European network will contract further, with the possible withdrawal of one of the daily London services in the short term.

"In the long term, Qantas International will only invest in new aircraft and operate to those ports where it can make an appropriate return on capital – this will not include Europe."

I was catching up on some RSS feeds and came across this interesting article of how the QF/EK alliance doesn't offer all that many good connections at DXB for all but a handful of westbound connections when using QF metal, and that an all EK metal flight is the better choice for anything except LHR.

The article compares times with Asian airlines flying out of their hubs, but no mention of any comparison to VA/EY. I haven't got time to check, but how does the QF/EK alliance compare with VA/EY in terms of connections at DXB and AUH respectively?

Emirates may well re-time some European services ex Dubai to coincide with the Qantas flight arrivals.

Considering "additional" volume will now be funnelled into Dubai - Emirates may increase capacity by additional services etc.

Let's just see how this plays out.

Not surprisingly, the submission by Virgin Australia to the ACCC opposes the approval, even though Virgin has a similar tie-up with Etihad.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/virgi...924-26gxl.html

Not really - QANTAS has opposed most ties ups that Virgin has sought and is even trying to break the tie up with Singapore Airlines as it suits its own requirements for Asia. Its all about protecting your market share and i am sure Virgin would love QANTAS international to fail as would QANTAS love Virgin to fail.

If QANTAS had been smart they would have kept the codeshare with Emirates that they had in the 90's and been better positioned for it than they are now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas Collins (Post 78041)

Hypocrites...

I don't agree. As Damien points out, QF was only too happy to oppose to every application DJ ever made. Not to mention there's a HUGE difference in the respective size and reach of the two alliances.

I thought it was a given that you try to quash any competitive advantages your competition are trying to make? Welcome to the real world :rolleyes:

I agree if fair enough for one of the airlines to argue "unfair advantage" with this sort of tie up - but if they're both going down the same path - then I don't see why the other now needs to oppose when they're doing the same thing?

That's all...

Noted this in the media...

Quote:

Etihad endorses QF and EK alliance – Etihad CEO James Hogan has said he is delighted Emirates has followed his lead and forged a network tie-up with an Australian carrier.

Last month, Virgin Australia, Singapore Airlines and Air New Zealand lodged submissions with the Australian Competition & Consumer Commission (ACCC) opposing the partnership.

Evening all,

Below are the planned schedule changes for some of the Qantas International schedules from March2013. These changes will occur regardless of the outcome of the QF-EK approval.

Quote:

QANTAS today (04OCT12) begins adjusting its Northern Summer schedule in 2013, which reflects the airline’s planned cooperation with Emirates, which is currently subject to approval.

The airline will go ahead with the planned changes regardless whether it received approval, according to the press statement. Planned changes are:

Note the airline has started updating operational schedules at time this post goes to press, therefore there are several schedule discrepancies currently in effect. This post will be updated throughout the day once additional schedules being loaded in the system.

Melbourne – Singapore NEW Dedicated Daily terminator service with Boeing 747-400
QF035 MEL1340 – 1920SIN 744 D
QF036 SIN2135 – 0655+1MEL 744 D

Sydney – Singapore New 4 weekly terminator service with morning departures from Sydney
QF081 SYD0940 – 1600SIN 333 x246
QF082 SIN2015 – 0605+1SYD 333 x246

Sydney – Singapore – Frankfurt The Daily service will continue to operate until late-October 2013, instead of previously planned 30MAR13
QF005 SYD1550 – 2200SIN2330 – 0615+1FRA 744 D

QF006 FRA2220 – 1640+1SIN2000 – 0525+2SYD 744 246
QF006 FRA2220 – 1640+1SIN2030 – 0605+2SYD 744 x246

Sydney – Dubai – London Heathrow Daily A380 service
QF001 SYD1605 – 0035+1DXB0205+1 – 0635+1LHR 388 D
QF002 Schedule to be updated

Melbourne – Dubai – London Heathrow Daily A380 service
Schedule to be updated

Following is the previously planned schedule for Northern Summer 2013, prior to today’s schedule change:
Sydney – Singapore – London Heathrow
QF001 SYD1610 – 2230SIN2359 – 0635+1LHR 388 D
QF002 LHR2130 – 1730+1SIN1920+1 – 0510+2SYD 388 D

Melbourne – Singapore – London Heathrow
QF009 MEL1530 – 2125SIN2305 – 0540+1LHR 38 D
QF010 LHR2230 – 1840+1SIN2020+1 – 0525+2MEL 388 D

Infpo from: http://airlineroute.net/2012/10/04/qf-s13-update1/

To add to that for the time being passengers on QF1/2/9/10 may stop over in DXB on their way to/from London, but Qantas cannot carry passengers to/from DXB as a standalone destination as they don't currently have the passenger rights.

Fifth freedom rights for countries beyond UAE/Australia are only limited to the number of flights allowed between the two countries (currently 123 per week). Apart from that there are no restrictions on Aussie airlines picking up pax in Dubai for onwards to other countries (Just as Emirates do between Aus and NZ)
The only thing stopping QF doing that at the moment is the fact that they have not yet been granted capacity to operate to Dubai which they have currently applied for.

See :
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/other/d...es/2005/8.html

The codeshare/interlining with Emirates is a seperate issue which needs to be approved by the ACCC

ACCC has announced a draft determination to approve the QF/EK alliance. Looks like they've proposed it be a 5 year alliance rather than the 10 years put up by the airlines.

Approval Given (5 years though)

QANTAS' partnership with Emirates is set to receive approval from the competition watchdog.

Quote:

In a draft decision handed down on Thursday, The Australian Competition and Consumer Commission (ACCC) said it would authorise an alliance between the two airlines for a period of five years.

"The ACCC considers that the alliance is likely to result in material, although not substantial, benefits to Australian consumers," ACCC Chairman Rod Sims said in a statement.

Qantas and Emirates had been seeking a 10-year approval from the ACCC, but Mr Sims said he had concerns about potential fare increases on flights between Australia and New Zealand.

The tie-up between Qantas and Emirates will involve a sharing of schedules, pricing and marketing on routes between Australia and Europe, the Middle East, North Africa, Asia and across the Tasman.

Mr Sims said it will lessen competition on some international routes, but competition from other airlines would mitigate that impact.

However, Qantas and Emirates could reduce or limit capacity on routes between Australia and New Zealand under their partnership, which could result in higher airfares, he said.

"Given the dynamic nature of the aviation industry, the limited extent of public benefits and the significant role of the trans-Tasman capacity condition in the ACCC's decision, the ACCC considers it appropriate to review this authorisation earlier than the ten years requested by Qantas and Emirates," Mr Sims said.

Approval from the ACCC provides Qantas and Emirates immunity from court action for conduct that raises concerns about competition.

Qantas and Emirates are seeking a final decision from the ACCC before the end of March 2013.

Read more: News.com.au

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rowan McKeever (Post 79844)

ACCC has announced a draft determination to approve the QF/EK alliance. Looks like they've proposed it be a 5 year alliance rather than the 10 years put up by the airlines.

JUST beat me too it... :D

ACCC final approval has been granted... at T-minus-4-days!

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-03-2...ction=business

What is the condition mentioned in the article with relation to flights between Australia and New Zealand? Is it something along the lines if maintaining frequency so as not to simply use the capacity of the A380 "shuttle services"?

Justin this is from the ACCC media release:

Quote:

“The ACCC considers that the alliance is likely to result in detriments through its effect on competition in regions where Qantas and Emirates currently offer competing air passenger and cargo transport services. However, in most of these regions, the ACCC has identified competitive constraints which mean that these detriments are likely to be minimal,” Mr Sims said.

“The one exception is the trans-Tasman where Qantas and Emirates compete on four routes which accounted for around 65% of total passenger capacity between Australia and New Zealand in the year to 30 June 2012. On these routes, the ACCC is concerned that Qantas and Emirates will have the ability and incentive to reduce or limit growth in capacity in order to raise airfares.”

In order to address this concern, the ACCC has imposed a condition of authorisation which requires the airlines to maintain at least their pre-alliance aggregate capacity on the four overlapping trans-Tasman routes, subject to a review to consider whether increases in the minimum required capacity are warranted.

With this condition, the ACCC is satisfied that the relevant net public benefit tests are met.

http://www.accc.gov.au/media-release...s-and-emirates

Thanks for that Rowan. Appreciate it.

Hi All,

Please note this when flying into Dubai:

This article was taken from the Melbourne Age:

Quote:

Don't kiss, don't swear: rules of a Dubai stopover

Date March 26, 2013

Robert Upe

Travel and Tourism Writer

Culture clash ... swimwear is appropriate by the pool or on the beach in Dubai but frowned on elsewhere. Low-cut dresses or tops, short skirts and short dresses are not recommended in public.

Australians travelling through Dubai have been warned they are at risk of fines or jail for cultural misdemeanours as simple as holding hands in public, swearing, harassing women with a prolonged stare or wearing inappropriate clothing.

''Just one person needs to take offence and to make a complaint and you can be in serious trouble and be held in custody for a long time if you challenge the charge,'' said Radha Stirling, founder of the non-profit organisation Detained in Dubai, which helps people in legal difficulty in the United Arab Emirates.

Qantas will enter a partnership with Emirates this Sunday that will result in its flights to Europe being routed through Dubai instead of Singapore.

Don't get too close ... public displays of affection are not tolerated.

The Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade warns on its website that de facto relationships, homosexual relationships and acts of adultery and prostitution are subject to severe punishment.

''It is also against the law in the UAE to share the same hotel room with someone of the opposite sex to whom you are not married or closely related,'' DFAT cautions. ''These laws apply to residents as well as visitors.''

Drinking in public or being drunk in public is another offence that can land travellers in strife. Australian travellers of Jewish background who are Israeli passport holders can only transit through Dubai and are not allowed to leave the airport because the UAE is a participant in the Arab League boycott of Israel.

An Emirati woman passes by a dress code sign at a shopping mall in Dubai.

"Qantas has said that Jewish and Israeli passengers will be safe transiting through Dubai, provided they don't leave the airport,'' Ms Stirling said. ''But what happens in the event of a catastrophe or severe weather when airport hotels are full?''

The partnership with Qantas and Emirates comes into effect on March 31, and will result in more Australians in Dubai than ever before, adding to the 50 million people -- including 2 million Aussies -- who already pass through there each year.

''While this is a new hub for Qantas, many Australians are already familiar with it,'' a Qantas spokesman said.

''Different rules apply in many of the countries we fly to, which is the very nature of international travel.

''We encourage all our passengers - whether they are travelling to Asia or the US or the UAE - to check the Australian government's Smart Traveller website so they are fully informed of local laws and customs before they board our aircraft,'' the spokesman said.

Qantas has been providing cultural training for its staff before the alliance with Emirates, advising that customer issues with UAE passengers may be best solved by a man.

''Don't take offence, don't continue to try and sort something out, simply hand it over to a male colleague. It doesn't matter whether you are the manager or supervisor, the fact that he is male will make all the difference,'' is the advice.

Laurent Chaudet, the general manager of the Pullman Mall of Emirates hotel, said: ''Australians might think of Dubai as an ultra-modern destination, but they need to remember that it is a Muslim country with traditional values.

''The simple advice would be to wear respectful clothing, avoid drunkenness and use of foul language, and respect the culture of the people here.''

Paul McGrath, the managing director of Australia's largest independent travel company Creative Holidays, is enthusiastic about Dubai coming on to the radar with the Qantas/Emirates alliance.

He said 40 per cent of people booking Europe trips with the company already stop over in Dubai for an average of four days on the way back.

Mr McGrath rates Dubai for its diversity, from shopping to desert experiences.

''I'd say that people just have to be conscious and mindful of the cultural differences. Be aware and be informed and there really isn't that much of a problem. They are lovely people, gracious and gentle ...''

Several tourists and expatriates have run afoul of conservative rules in the UAE in recent years.

In 2010, a British couple were arrested and sentenced to a month in jail for kissing in public in Dubai.

In 2009, an Australian man was arrested for allegedly saying “What the f---?” to a plainclothes police officer who grabbed his arm at Dubai Airport. He was forced to remain in Dubai for months before being let go with a fine.

In the most prominent case, a British couple were jailed for three months in 2008 after having drunken sex on a public beach.

Two Emirati women started an online campaign last year, called UAE Dress Code, urging foreigners to respect local sensitivities and not dress provocatively.

DUBAI RULES

The drinking age is 21. Drinking in public or being drunk in public are not tolerated.
Offensive language, spitting, aggressive behaviour and smoking outside designated areas are not tolerated.
Public displays of affection such as holding hands or kissing are not tolerated.
It is customary for men to shake hands however Emirati women tend not to offer their hands to men.
Men should avoid staring at local women or attempting to make eye contact.
During Ramadan while Muslims are fasting from dawn to dusk, non-Muslims can only eat and drink in screened-off areas in many hotels and restaurants.
Wear respectful clothing. Swimwear is appropriate by the pool or on the beach but frowned on elsewhere. Low-cut dresses or tops, short skirts and short dresses are not recommended in public.
Men should wear a T-shirt or shirt at all times.

*Source: Dubai Department of Tourism and Commerce Marketing.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/travel/trav...#ixzz2OkeJrlTE

I wonder how many Aussies will get locked up for breaking local customs and rules?? Me thinks the Australian Consulate will be very busy!!!

Stuart

nil, Australians have been flying through the Middle East for years, originally with Gulf and Qantas through Bahrain and then through Dubai since Emirates started in Australia in the 90's, and how many have been locked up as tourists, nil

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew P (Post 81666)

nil, Australians have been flying through the Middle East for years

Exactly. How many years has Emirates been flying here? Shock horror, other carriers like Etihad and Gulf Air.......

As with any destination, any traveller has to know the laws and customs before flying there. It is clear the media want to whip up hysteria.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew P (Post 81666)

and how many have been locked up as tourists, nil

Doubt that, but agree with the overall sentiment. Besides middle east, Asia, US etc each country has their own laws and customs we need to respect and really it isn't up to the airline to warn or tell us how to behave. Also if you don't like a particular country fly to or through somewhere else, on another carrier if need be.

I personally think that this is simply a case of 'scaremongering' at its finest!!!

Dubai, and even Doha where I have visited many times, is actually quite 'western' and embracing of western cultures and people, unlike its neighbouring state of Saudi... In both Dubai and Doha, alcohol is permitted in hotels, and when I was in contract negotiations for a position in Doha, I was even told of how the purchasing and storage of alcohol was managed; there is even an 'expats village' where there is a bar, and a nightclub for expats!

Sure, if you go there expecting Kuta or similar, then you will find yourself in a bit of 'hot water' but for the most part, you wont find those type of places there!

As far as I can recommend, go via Dubai, Doha even, embrace the culture and experience of the Middle East, for your experience of the country will be long remembered!

But don't take your girlfriend or boyfriend.....

QANTAS AND EMIRATES DUAL A380 FLY OVER

Date: Sunday 31 March 2013
Time: 9:20 – 10:50am
Location: Sydney Opera House

Photo Opportunity:
Flight Plan: Aircraft will take off from Sydney International at 9:20am. Both aircraft will fly north to Longreef, then south and slightly out to sea, where they will turn and come into Sydney Harbour over Watson’s Bay, then position to the north side of the Harbour, where they will pass the Sydney Opera House and fly over the Sydney Harbour Bridge at 10.30am. They will then fly as far as the Gladesville Bridge, turn around and come back in the same formation. The Qantas plane will lead at a height of 1500ft with the Emirates aircraft to the right and higher.

Hi All,

You are missing the point.

While EK and other Middle East Airlines have flown here for years, this will be the first time that our Flag Carrier Qantas will ops via Dubai, instead of Singapore.

Singapore is a more lade back society, similiar to us in many ways, but Dubai is strict. The Normal well travelled passenger won't be affected by these Laws, but the 20+s Back Packer / those looking for fun on their way to/from LHR who get a little ****ed, may be in trouble, particuarly those with girlfriends etc...

That was the point I was trying to make.

Stuart

Kurt it's times like 0920-1050 this Sunday that make me wish I was in Sydney... that would be an amazing sight!!!

Singapore is almost a police state in reality and those looking to play up can and do get caught out by the local laws.

About all that changes is the via City. The rest is essentially traveller be aware, just like visiting any country.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ash W (Post 81677)

The rest is essentially traveller be aware, just like visiting any country.

Sure, but now we're routed through a country that imprisons rape victims for adultery.

Singapore is much more civilized - they imprison the rapist!

Daily Telegraph are reporting the aircraft as being A330's :rolleyes: I think they meant A380 (perhaps)??

Quote:

A Qantas A330 and Emirates A330 will take off from Sydney Airport at 9.20am and fly north to Longreef before turning and flying to Watson's Bay.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/tra...-1226608348515

And a Herald Sun report has made reference to the Qantas and Emirates "merger"..... :rolleyes:
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/business...-1226607991945

Quote:

Originally Posted by StevenW (Post 81680)

Sure, but now we're routed through a country that imprisons rape victims for adultery.

Singapore is much more civilized - they imprison the rapist!

The answer is simple. Don't like the country fly someone else. No one is forcing you to fly Qantas or Emirates, though clearly considering the number of passengers that Emirates, Virgin Australia and Ethiad already, and soon Qantas will take via the UAE you would be in the minority.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ash W (Post 81684)

I wouldn't fly Qantas or Emirates to Europe anyway, so it's a moot point in my case. Besides, I'd argue that the majority of people choosing to fly those carriers don't know the risks they are running, particularly women stopping over rather than simply transiting.

The point still stands, though. The masses of Australians transiting or stopping over in Dubai are going to need some pointers as to which crimes committed against them are safe to report to police, lest they find themselves arrested for being the victim of a crime.

Seriously - imprisoning women for adultery because they've been raped? It beggars belief that any sane person would step foot in a country that treats women like that, let alone think it's a good idea to route thousands of women through that country every day.

I'm amazed that the whole punishing the victim mentality of that part of the world isn't getting more publicity. It's a legitimate concern, and one that most travellers need to be made aware of.

Do QF metal flights allow only SYD/MEL-DXB only bookings yet (that is Australia-Dubai origin-destination bookings) or only as a stopover still at this stage?

In relation to the other discussion; I think you'll find that with the additional Qantas metal now carrying "Australians" into Dubai, there will be an even greater contingent staying on stop-overs.

The fact that most people don't know it is even illegal to share a hotel room (male and female) unless you are married, will cause a lot of issues for Australians not used to this laws outside of Western culture.

Airport hotels are fine - whilst airside, there are no issues, but once you land in Dubai, it is a different ball game...

Excited about the flyover - now to see how I can best view it on the day.

As for the Dubai thing, my girlfriend and I transitted through there in 2010 under different surnames and we shared a hotel room without problem. Dubai is an amazing place and didn't feel intimidating at all - the people there were very welcoming - though I wouldn't try anything stupid at immigration or security in the airport.

Dan