Verdict on Gardua Captain due today
 

D Day for the Garuda Captain;

Herald Sun - Garuda crash pilot Marwoto Komar faces verdict over fatal crash - Article

Personally I would think letting him go free would be an insult to the families of those who perished.

Just being reported that he has been found guilty of criminal negligence and jailed for two years

So, after being found guilty of taking 21 lives through negligence, he gets just over one month per life. Standard Indonesian justice me thinks!! And to make matters even more interesting, he wasn't even ordered to jail....that has to come from a higher court!! Unbelievable :mad::mad:

I'm not sure I personally see what a jail sentence for the pilot will do. It is far more important to encourage open reporting and tackle the real root of the problem than jeapodise future investigations by involving the criminal courts.

Spot on!

This is to Owen H and Montague S, and all the other people out there who agree with them. This is now the third time I've asked this question, and so far no-one has replied.

Could you please explain to me exactly what are the differences in responsibility and liability between the driver of a car and a pilot?

You are suggesting that even though this pilot has been found to be the cause of this aircraft crashing and being destroyed resulting in numerous injuries and 21 deaths, he (and by association all other pilots) should bear no legal responsibility at all.

How can you possibly say this? Please, you've stated your opinion, can you please justify it?

You talk about having a culture of open reporting of issues by aircrew, and blame management pressures for pilots flying dangerously. Why don't you report these bad management pressures to the regulatory authorities then???

I am guessing that the regulatory bodies behind Indonesia Aviation are not as 'tough' as other nations. For those familiar with Underbelly, I am also guessing that there is a fair bit of 'drinks for the boys' as well....

Just going on from Adrian's post...

Also from http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...?section=world

I also agree with Stephen on this, if all the evidence proves that the pilot was negligent, why should he/she not be subject to criminal prosecution? I can understand that the purpose of the investigation is to increase safety in the aviation industry, but my understanding is that in most commercial aircraft incidents there is enough solid data (from data recorders, radar and voice recorders etc) to give investigators a clear picture of what happened before they even need to speak to the pilots.

I just don't see how it is any different to a bus driver crashing purely from negligence. If it is a fault with equipment, then of course the pilot should not be held liable - but if it is clearly the pilot's fault that the plane crashed then he/she should be criminally tried.

Quite disgusting seeing a 2 year term dished out, when they locked up poor Schapelle for 20 years for some dope.

My sympathies to the families of those who perished who feel no justice has been done in this matter.

I really shouldn't be getting involved in this one again, but here goes nothing...

I think what Owen and Monty are taking exception to is the idea that the crash was all Captain Komar's fault. Giving him personally a jail sentence is clearly pointing the finger squarely at him - the fact that noone else has been prosecuted shows that.

In today's Sydney Morning Herald online is this article:

http://www.smh.com.au/world/despair-...0406-9ux2.html

Right below it online is a link to this one:
http://www.smh.com.au/world/another-...0406-9ux0.html

Read those two articles closely and see if you make the same connection I did. Especially read and think about the last few words in the first paragraph of the second one. The situation as I see it is much more complicated than hysterically pointing accusing fingers while saying that "HE ignored heaps of warnings and HE didn't go around and it was all HIS fault".

I'll even make it easy for you:
Do you see it? I'll emphasise it for you:
One more time:
The point I am trying to make is so very subtle that even the SMH does not appear to have made the connection. It really comes down to something quite simple:

It is very unfair to place the blame on the shoulders of one man.

An accident is very very rarely the fault of just one person. An accident is usually a symptom of a much deeper problem, a problem seated deep within an organisation, one that's part of its culture. Note that culture in this context is more than simply what country the company is from. Culture is 'the way we do things around here' and flows from the top, down. The example of 'the way they do things over there' that is referenced in the above article is of companies instructing engineers to repair unservicable bits of equipment rather than buying a new one, or pilots being rewarded for saving fuel. Clearly these are not particularly helpful for system safety as we might define it.

It is reasonable to assume that we are all essentially rational - ie in general we want to do the right thing. We want to make the right decisions. Sure, Captain Komar was the 'guy who made the mistake' that brought the whole world crashing down. But it is wise to consider what other, external factors contributed to Captain Komar's judgement on that day - factors which are not necessarily entirely under his control. Jailing just one man while saying "it was all HIS fault" is not an effective way to deal with the deeper issues that are at play in Indonesian aviation.

I do understand what you're saying and I think everyone would agree that Indonesian aviation is little more than a very bad joke. Howver, in this case, the blame must be attributed to one man - the pilot.

Relate it back to the roads again...If a truckie has an accident and kills somebody on the road he is held ENTIRELY responsible. It doesn't matter if he is half asleep due to being pushed by his company. The responsibility is entirely his. Sure, his company might get a slap on the wrist for enforcing unsafe work practises but the ultimate decision to drive is still the drivers.
The same applies here. The pilot had numerous chances to abort the landing and was advised to do so by his second. It was ENTIRELY his decision to proceed with the landing and therefore ENTIRELY his responsibility to suffer the consequences for his poor decision.

So how does picking on one bloke help aviation safety overall, if the company gets a mere 'slap on the wrist'?

I don't think he was picked on, more like he was held to account for his actions, or lack thereof. If you call prosecuting a negligent driver of any vehicle (aircraft or otherwise) being picked on you would then have to say anybody made to account for their actions by law being picked on.

The only way Indonesian aviation can ultimately become safer is for other countries to ban access to Indonesian carriers. Once Garuda and others are banned from their major destinations they will be forced to look internally and take on safer practices, better training and maintenance in order to be allowed to fly to those destinations once again.

NickN,

Its a nice idea to just ban them outright, but it can work against the final goal.

If Garuda are banned from flying to overseas countries, Indonesian aviation will suffer majorly, and the money will dry up. Unless there is money coming in, there is no way their industry will change for the better.

What needs to happen is that instead of bans, the other countries work together with the Indonesians (which may also require putting in funds), to work towards a far safer industry.

Greg,

I find it strange that you relate it back to an industry attitude that is clearly broken! Our whole point is that the situation you describe of penalising the driver, and not the company, is the WRONG one to take! It is purely penal, and does not fix the problem.

Owen,

The company did not disregard years of training practice and experience. The company did not ignore 15 separate warning systems. The company did not ignore the second pilot. The company did not try to land a 737 at twice it's landing speed. The company did not drive that same 737 into a paddock causing it to be destroyed. The company did not kill 21 people and injure many others.

Regardless of what he may or may not have been thinking, one man chose to do these things. The independent accident investigation run by aviation experts said so.

That man, and ANYONE else who would do the same should pay the price. Yes, under the penal system, because it's the one we have right now.

I know that just about every company in every field of business places undue pressure on their employees at some time. What and how the employee chooses of their own free will to do in that situation is up to them. Yes, sometimes the choices are very difficult to make, but you always have a choice.

If you, instead of making a choice, can live with driving an airliner into the ground and killing everyone but yourself, please tell me with whom you fly and I'll be sure never to fly with them again.

Stephen,

The pilot did not intentionally crash the aircraft. He made a decision based on his training, practice and experience as you say. The company, and industry, is partially responsible for a pilot's training, which is where we need to concentrate.

My concern is not that the pilot gets some form of penalty. My concern is that so many here, and in the media, seem to have some perverted desire to just punish punish punish, while not understanding that what they are doing can damage the safety systems that exist. You and many others have said that he should, and I quote "pay the price". It makes us feel warm and fuzzy to know someone has been punished, while the industry is no safer, and more people can be killed in similar circumstances.

It is so important we can find out the causes behind this mentality of continue in what were marginal circumstances.

To go back to the trucking analogy - For a long time if a truck driver fell asleep at the wheel they were charged and imprisoned, and nothing else happened. That wasn't solving the problem, which is why, now, the regulator is putting pressure on the industry as a whole to remove the unrealistic timeframes the drivers are given.

Imprisoning drivers didn't make the industry safer, nor prevent further crashes. Regulator pressure to outlaw unsafe rostering practices, and harsh penalties for companies that created and encouraged unsafe driving patterns has helped.

We have lead the way in this field in aviation, and we need to ensure that it continues into some of the less wealthy aviation areas.

Owen, it is obvious you are writing from an informed perspective. Thank you.

Stephen,
Clearly this is a company attitude that is not condicive to safe operations. What measures do you think would be acceptable and effective in mitigating the risk arising from this sort of company culture?

Finally, to all,
At the risk of sounding like the thread police, this has been a fascinating discussion with some obviously polarised opinions. It would be a shame to see it going the way of the last thread on this topic. Please keep it civil - play the ball, not the man!

The way I see it, there are only two ways to mitigate/eradicate the risk of dangerous pressures being placed on employees to act in dangerous ways. The first is regulation by government. But in this capitalist society where the dollar is all too often the most important thing, effective and appropriate regulation can often be hard to come by.

Where there is no such regulation, the employees have to take a stand. There are various ways to do this, which can include going higher up the chain, going to the media, or simply refusing to undertake an unsafe activity.

If as has been suggested the pilot here was pressured to act in what has turned out to be a deadly way, then he should have taken action against it, up to and including refusing to fly the aircraft. And yes this could have cost him his job, which is a very big price for anyone. But now 21 other people have paid the price for him. And 21 families will continue to do so for the rest of their lives. Not to mention those injured and maimed.

This is the other side of the employees taking a stand. There is unfortunately always someone greedy or stupid enough to think they can get away with it. These are the people, such as potentially in this case that need to be removed from the equation.

If there are other factors that need to be investigated beyond those directly responsible for this crash, then someone needs to do it. They may even be a factor here, but this pilot deliberately chose and is solely responsible for his actions.

Stephen, when you can show me how this verdict and the sentence has made Indonesian aviation safer then I'll entertain the rest of your posts.

I don't get this.
There are some who feel this accident was caused by the system and trying and jailing the pilot is not conducive to open disclosure of future incidents.

I agree the Indonesian system is flawed and needs a culture change to bring it into line with other countries and yes that culture change needs to start at the very top.

The system did not ignore all those warnings, did not land an aircraft at extremely high speed . The pilot did.

What action do those against trying the pilot suggest should be taken against someone who acts in such a negligent manner, comfort him and say "it's OK it wasn't your fault!"

I've tried to resist posting in this topic on past experiences...but i have to.

The Indonesian system is deeply, deeply, deeply flawed. Make no mistake that i believe the contrary. However...

To those who believe the pilot should not be imprisoned on the premise it doesn't improve the situation..how do you know it doesn't? How do you know that other pilots will be more careful in the future?

And if one of your family members (or someone as close to you) was killed in this incident, would you not be after the most severe gaol sentence you could get? Or would you still be caring about the overall picture?

Let me tell you, it would be the former.

Edit - Removed as I'm just restating what I said before.

As far as I'm aware this case was not about Indonesian avaition. It was about a pilot who did everything wrong, destroyed an aircraft and killed people. It has as a by product increased the safety of aviation world wide by removing a very dangerous person from the cockpit. But there are those who seem to think this unfair.

So I'll ask for the FOURTH time, exactly how are the responsibiities of car drivers and pilots different?

Give us an answer that can help us understand your viewpoint. Please. Are you even a pilot? Is there any justification for your viewpoint?

Surley the pilot is not the only one with their actions being scrutinised here. I have not read into any of this discussion, but from what I can gather the media is pointing the finger squarely at the pilot, and so is anyone who pays attention to that.

In my line of work, If i made a terrible mistake that jeopardised the lives of passengers, I would be held accountable. However, an investigation would also be carried out into how I was trained, the working conditions and any other factors that affect my ability to work. If any problems were found there, then action would be taken against those parties as well.

I do not think anyone here is questioning that the pilot should not be punished, and I believe a gaol term is a fair punishment. His command decisions that day can hardly be considered normal as per his training. However I do not think that this investigation has stopped there, questions must linked to the flight crew's training, why did the First Officer not take over after repeatedly asking the Captain to abort the landing for instance?

Just answering this now so Montague can answer your other questions, because i want to know the asnwers, but...

Its pretty irrelevant if he is a pilot or not, and his viewpoint is his viewpoint, he can believe what he wants.

Stephen,
Let's step back a bit and look at it from a wider perspective. What you suggest is a good start, from an employee level. But this 'culture' thing is deeply ingrained within any company. Clearly it's the culture that needs changing. I agree with your suggestion of individual employees refusing to take on dangerous tasks, for example, as one way to attempt to change the culture. But it needs to start higher than that - as I wrote earlier, 'from the top, down'.
The first step in any type of problem solving is identifying the problem. My biggest issue with criminal prosecutions of people like Captain Komar is that because people see that 'someone has been punished', they assume the case is closed. The danger is that the real reason for unsafe practices - something at a deeper company level - may be missed, because 'it has been dealt with', ie someone has been punished. So just sending this bloke to prison won't achieve anything if the real issues remain unidentified.

They're not. But as a private car driver you are not affected by company culture, which is where I'd wager the real issues lie in this case. I do not believe that car drivers are relevant to the discussion at hand.

Stephen.

Please?

Rhys,
Not here it wouldn't. If I were in the situation you suggest, I would not want a similar accident to happen again - that way my family member would not have died in vain. By 'similar accident' here I'm not necessarily referring to a high-speed overrun - similar in this context is an accident resulting from similar issues in the organisation (for example the 'save face' thing). If there are as you have acknowledged flaws in the system, then I would want those systemic issues solved before anyone is jumped on as a scapegoat. The 'scapegoat' thing appeals to many people necause it appears that 'something has been done' to fix a situation. But has it really made a difference, has it really acheived anything, if the same systemic flaws that led to an accident are left there to lie dormant waiting for the next set of holes in the swiss cheese to line up? I don't think so.

Adam,
So you believe Captain Komar should have been left to continue his career or did you have some other sanction in mind?
I am still troubled by those that feel he is above any form of punishment when despite the aviation culture he was trained in he truly screwed up.
He was obviously performing outside the standards of even the Indonesian industry otherwise the airports there would be surround by the burning hulks of the daily airliner crashes.
Yes fix the culture but also punish those that do wrong and he did.

Read my posts again Chris. I have not said outright that Captain Komar should not be punished. My issue is with the finger being pointed squarely at just one man.

The modern understanding of aviation accidents is that they are the ultimate conclusion to a long and usually complicated chain of events. Many factors go together to create that chain of events, and eventually the accident itself. It's never solely the fault of one person.

Sure, send him to jail. But fix the wider problems too. Otherwise aviation is no safer for it and you have ultimately achieved nothing.

if its not glaringly obvious to you...then we're just going round in circles, my employment has nothing to do with this topic.

my view is the same as Adam's, trace back to the other thread and you'll find it all there. The problem isn't just the pilot, its the Indonesian system itself, the training and the need to save face which is deeply engrained throughout our Asian neighbours.

They point fingers and get their pound of flesh, but as sure as the sun rises you can bet that there will be other accidents throughout Indonesia, once again, how does putting this man in jail prevent it from re-occurring?

comparing a car driver to a pilot is beyond stupid...there is no comparison to be had.

Adam,

My concern is that there are people in this thread and in the earlier thread on this topic who have said this man should not be punished by the courts at all because it will damage the way all pilots will view the accident investigation process. It was even sugessted in the earlier thread that pilots may start disabling the CVR in fear it might be used against them in court.

The ONLY message I can take from that attitude is that pilots think they should be exempt from all responsibility and consequesnses of their actions.

Given that I am a travelling member of the public, that attitude scares the living **** out of me!

I know that no sane person would endanger themselves, but I also remeber the Silkair crash. Extreme comparisom I know, but it is what it could come to.

I want to know that the people up front understand that there are several hundred people behind them who value their lives. They're not on the aircraft for the thrill of cheating death.

To that end I do not take a wider view of the situation. I take a veiw that is around 3.5 meters wide. I have to trust in the pilots to take every aspect of their job seriously, and act in my interest as well as theirs as they read that next company directive requiring them to land with the wheels up to save on tyre wear.

Previous posts in this thread do not give me that confidence.

Stephen, if you're so concerned as a member of the travelling public then why on earth can't you wrap your head around the fact that punishing one doesn't fix a system that is broken?

which do you want? safer Indonesian air travel for all in the long run? or one man brought to "justice" for the deaths of your fellow Australian's.

accidents happen, the fact that you don't grasp that scares the hell out of me even more, and what's more, it frightens me to think that you can't see the failures in the system and think finger-pointing will solve the problem. How do you know what training the captain was provided to deal with the situation he was in? you simply don't?

Firstly, to Montague, Apologies for asking if you were a pilot, that was inappropriate.

My question though is not about the Garuda crash. My question is a general one, about suggestions that pilots should never face criminal prosecution for any actions the pilot chooses to take of their own free will within any system, broken or not.

You also indicate you have knowledge of the difference in responsibility between driving a car and flying an aircraft. That is part of my question. I am not a pilot, and have no flight training of any kind, so I do not have that knowledge.

Would you mind sharing that knowledge with me so I can understand your point better please?

Banned in Europe, Garuda still calls Australia home
 

Here is a great article, and worth the read......

I'd contest that! Their has been other incidents that have been just as bad, if not worse.

Solve the management attitude and safety culture, and you basically solve the problem.

for godsake, now you're writing me in private! listen, I think its time you let it go and accept that others have different positions from your own, if you can't wrap your head around that then don't PM me asking me to elaborate.

Hi Montague,

I tried to take this private as there was no need to continue it in public. But if you wish, so be it.

I have no problem with others having different opinions to me at all. I "wrapped my head" around that one long ago. What I have a problem with is people who think it's OK to make grandiose statements, be rude and dismissive to those who have the audacity to disagree let alone dare to question, and then not have the good grace to back themselves up.

Not everyone who has a different opinion to yourself is "beyond stupid" to use your own phrase.

Every time I've asked my question all you've done is abused me for not being able to wrap my head around the fact that you have a different opinion to me, and declared it beyond stupid. But you've never answered it. If the question is too trivial for you to answer, why did you abuse me for it? Or is it that you have an opinion different to mine, but not the knowledge to back it up? :confused:

It is very possible to discuss different opinions politely, and if you can put your case clearly and factually, you may even be able to bring others around to your way of thinking. That's what I was asking for, I was not expecting an aggressive and abusive response.

I haven't abused you at all, if I had you'd know it by now and the mods would have deleted the offending posts, I have made my position clear..perhaps you should take note of your own comments.

so far you have managed not to answer a simple question, how does jailing this man solve the critical problems within Indonesian aviation.