Using larger aircraft for SYD MEL

[Jethro H]

I hope this does not seem to be a dumb question but this was raised recently with the Government's attempt to look at High Speed Rail on the east coast.... again!

The discussion mentioned how SYD-MEL is one of the busiest air routes in the world with almost 800,000 PAX last month, but the question raised which has was not answered is why with about 2500 PAX per day don't airlines use larger aircraft for this route such as A380 or the 747.

(Mind you, I wish they stop wasting time on the HSR or VFT ideas as it will never happen)

[Adam P.]

F-R-E-Q-U-E-N-C-Y.

Ever noticed how between them, both Qantas and Virgin have SYD-MEL flights leaving every 15 minutes on most days? It's all about travelling when you want to travel, not when the airline says you can.

You could move those 2,500 pax per day on, what, six or seven A380 flights - but they'd go every hour and a half or so. Bad luck if you want to travel 'between' flight times.

A Very Fast Train would work on a similar principle with departures every, say, half hour or so.

[Nigel C]

But having said that Adam, surely the airlines are currently having time periods during the peak when they have demand clearly exceeding current supply? Admittedly this would probably only equate to one, maybe 2 flights per peak period, but perhaps they could use this flight/s as a well timed load carrying ferry?

Disclaimer: Airline scheduling is NOT a strong suit for me!

[Adam P.]

Absolutely Nigel, that would work... if the big aeroplanes were available at the times you wanted them... if the crew were available to fly them... if the bays were available at the Domestic terminals to cope with the bigger aeroplanes... if pax were happy going through the International terminal (and all the hullabaloo and extra time that entails) because that's the only place with the facilities for the A380...

Theoretically it makes sense, but the practicalities of actually making it work make life more complicated. Having said that, I'm not sure how the majors cycle their aircraft around so I don't know how complicated or otherwise it potentially could be to slot a cheeky Melbourne return in somewhere. But from my perspective the more complicated a situation is - with different aeroplanes and crew coming from everywhere at all different times - the harder it is to sort out when something (inevitably) goes wrong somewhere. A fleet made up of a single type is far simpler to re-arrange if required!

[Oliver Gigacz]

744s can go to Qantas domestic in both MEL and SYD.

I would love to see 744s on the MEL-SYD route, But that is one tall order.

[Anthony T]

Hi there

A Melbourne to Sydney high speed rail line is actually a no brainer.
You would be connecting three cities and a major rural conurbation with a combined population of approaching 10,000,000 people.

I recently did a run time analysis of a 330kmh high speed route between Melbourne & Sydney and acheived a run time of 3 Hrs 21 mins using current heavy rail practices. (none of this MAGLEV stuff)

The route was Southern Cross - Melbourne Airport - Albury/Wodonga - Canberra - Sydney Airport - Central Station. The route would be signalled for a 7.5 mins max headway at line speed, although a realistic headway would be 16 mins between Melbourne & Sydney, allowing for extra services between Canberra & Sydney.

A high speed railway would be good for SYD & MEL airports, allowing the freeing up of slots for more international arrivals and departures, It wouldn't be so great for Canberra & Albury airports though.

But it won't happen because :
1....The airlines will oppose it and fight tooth and nail, although I'm not sure why, the airlines QF,DJ & ZL could jointly fund and operate the rail line, it would be cheaper than buying / updating airplanes for the route.
2.... It cannot be done within the term of a Federal Government.


Cheers
Anthony T

[Anthony T]

I would love to see 744s on the MEL-SYD route

Try United Airlines they have a B744 on the MEL-SYD route and you can use it for a MEL-SYD and on to New Zealand with NZ.

[Adam P.]

2.... It cannot be done within the term of a Federal Government.

Nail, head, hit.

Dunno about any airlines 'jointly operating' anything without a merger, but I don't see why something like 'Virgin Trains' in the UK couldn't work here - lines essentially privatised and operated by seperate companies.

It'd require some significant vision from political leaders, however. I don't see much of that in the current lot.

[Nigel C]

The question then lies in how long would it be, if ever, before the service actually ran at an operating profit, not including the paying off the initial capital investment to get the service up and running in the first place?

How much would a single ticket cost, and how would that compare to the current relatively low costs of domestic air travel? If the system runs at a constant loss, then I as a tax payer would not be terribly in favour. If the operating costs were somehow shared with freight operators using the same line without causing unnecessary delays to passenger services, then perhaps it might be economically viable.

[chrisb]

One of the points raised by Crikey on this is the travel time - once the train exceeds about 2 hours in each direction it starts to become less practical for the day return business people - and i'm sure there's a lot of them and they're the ones paying high fares.

Also, the regional people will demand that the train actually stops for them or they'll object to it speeding through their area which will result in the usual political mess. That just makes the trip longer and longer until it becomes pointless.

Internet & Mobile would give the train an advantage if they got that installed when building it, but on the other hand the airlines would probably respond very quickly with something like "GoGo" inflight Internet on the BNE-SYD-CBR-MEL-ADL route.


As for a small number of large aircraft frequency is an issue, especially when your A380 breaks down and you have to find space for 700 people or whatever you've wedged in.

Also, I understand the turn around times on large aircraft kill the economics on short routes. You're also taking your very expensive 744/A380 long range aircraft and killing it with excessive short cycles.

From what i've read here, Qantas doesn't really treat SYD-MEL during peak as separate flights, more like a pool of seats - hence why quickcheck is capable of shuffling people around between flights when they're early.